I wasn’t going to post anything this week, having been weighted down with homework – well, that’s my excuse, anyway – but I just have to share this latest outrage with you. We’ve just been for a quick beer and a sandwich at one of our locals. Settled down to enjoy half a Guinness and a filled toasted ciabatta (in a pub, I know – we’re nothing if not international around here), we couldn’t help but hear the altercation at a nearby table.
Two fellow diners were complaining to the landlady that their Brie and Pancetta ciabattas had meat in them. They whingingly explained that they were vegetarian. We halted our own conversation while we waited to hear the landlady’s response. She very sweetly explained that Pancetta is a little like bacon, didn’t they realise. The vegetarians said they didn’t and could they have the same but just with the Brie. The landlady asked if it would be okay to take the Pancetta out but they insisted on two fresh ones.
The landlady kindly obliged while we looked at each other, jaws dropped in amazement. Once we had recovered sufficiently, Husband (who would fall into the Basil Fawlty school of dealing with customers), made the point that because of the vegetarians ignorance, the Pub would be losing out. How fair is that?
When we paid our bill at the bar we told the landlady she’d been very generous and shared a moment of exasperated humour with her. What do you think – did she go beyond the call of duty? As a customer, should you check what something is on a menu before you order it? Particularly if you have restricted dietary requirements….glad I don’t work in hospitality.
charactersfromthekitchen 
A dillema – will the customer come back? Will they give you a bad review? perhaps it’s better business in the long run to make the customer happy. The offer to take out the meat showed the landlady ‘s ignorance of vegetarian needs. If she is in the food business she should know the concerns of today’s eating customer.
However, yes, it would be correct and wise for someone with dietary restrictions to enquire what the ingredient is if they don’t recognize the name.
There now I’ve started something!
Rod, you beat me to it. Taking out the offending item isn’t acceptable. But it wasn’t her fault they ordered the wrong thing.
@ Jenny
We’re the items marked as veg or not with a V?
Because that would be a good start. Assuming the landlady/chef/staff actually understand what constitutes vegetarian. And that never includes parmesan or Gorgonzola, can include Brie.
I agree with you – it’s always wise to check an unknown ingredient on a menu – and I can’t believe that those with a food allergy wouldn’t do just that. It stated quite clearly on the menu that it contained both elements – they should have asked what Pancetta was if they weren’t sure. In the landlady’s defence – vegetarianism seems to be a grey area, with some professing to eat fish, so to us non veggies, it’s all a bit confusing!
Haha! Is this aimed at me? OK I’ll answer.
If I have specified veg food and it arrives with bacon, then no, I don’t want it picked out, I want a fresh meal. Happened in France, with, yes, bacon.
If I’ve made a total prat of myself, a frequent occurrence, and ordered something without checking it, that’s my fault. I either order and pay for something else, or eat the bits I can manage. It’s always been pasta I have forgotten about, three times. Once in Portugal, once in Spain, and once in the UK – no excuse there at all.
In Spain, we just started to say, todo vegetariano, ni carni, ni jamón, ni pescado, ni marisco. Solamente verduras. Ni atún (for salads)
Difficult to say as I know what pancetta is. I’d have been more likely to ask whether or not the Brie had animal rennet …
Well, not aimed at you but it did occur to me that I’d get the veggie viewpoint if you read this post😄
As I mentioned to Rod, there appears to be quite a lot of grey area to us non veggies and while I take his point that maybe she should have understood completely their requirements, on another occasion, the vegetarian may well have been ok with the offending stuff being removed. Not all self proclaimed vegetarians I’ve come across are purists – eating fish appears alright as does any type of cheese.
On the menu in the pub was also tomato, mozzarella and pesto. Would that have been an acceptable substitute, and if so, why didn’t they choose it in the first place?
Actually the areas are very clear about what is/ isn’t vegetarian if you look at the UK Veg Soc definition, which from memory is no flesh, fish or fowl, and any ingredients eg cheese made with animal rennet, gelatin used for whatever gelatin is used for, derived from animal products are excluded.
Again from memory, eggs should be free range, I think Quorn was refused the veg soc sticker of approval until they managed to be able to source FR eggs for the manufacturing process.
Mozzarella is often OK, the Galbani one widely available, is veg, as is Morrison’s own brand. On the reverse side though, it is difficult when restaurants/bars/cafes describe food that they ‘think’ is vegetarian when it patently isn’t. That also spreads confusing messages generally.
I think we all make the wrong assumptions when we’re not veg. I know have done in the past, including describing myself as veg when I ate fish/seafood which is probably the most confusing mis description. It would be much more sensible to say I don’t eat meat, rather than I’m vegetarian, I eat fish. It then leads to silly conversations about ‘the queen of Spain is vegetarian and she eats mussels so why don’t you?’ Aaaaagh!
I’ve written a few posts about it (on Clouds, not Roughseas) actually explaining what veggies do eat. It’s easier for non-veggies to err on the safe side if entertaining or going out with non-veggies. People that have catered for us in the UK have been spectacularly helpful to make sure they didn’t provide something I wouldn’t want to eat, one dragged the cheese out of the fridge to show me the sticker, another checked to see if I ate eggs/cheese. No one mentioned fish or pancetta!
I think pescatarian is more widely accepted as a term these days and it would be good if more ‘vegetarians who eat fish’ used that. Years back, say 1980, we met a couple who described themselves as ‘food reformists’ …
I have to say, that if you’re going to commit to something you may as well go the whole hog, if you’ll pardon the appallingly inappropriate cliché. I think a lot of people latch onto veggie-dom without bothering with the finer details.
I think the landlady did the right thing – the customer is always right – but vegetarians ordering pancetta? Shouldn’t they ask when there’s a mystery (to them) ingredient on the menu? Yikes. Maybe they can’t read. 😉
Yep, the customer is always right. I think she was charming to them although we were left in no doubt as to how she really felt when we paid our bill!
I am embarrassed that I must have somehow lingered my mouse on this and somehow got disconnected, Jenny. You may see that I am once again following you… Sorry about this. No wonder you weren’t showing up in my Reader!
I definitely give the hostess of the eating establishment credit for her being very obliging and think she did a great thing by proving she was a ‘better person’ than the customers. Certainly, my daughter who has some allergies and also, tends to stay away from meats that have been cured or have preservatives, will ask about ingredients. The ones with dietary restrictions need to learn how to ask and be courteous about their choices.
This was a shame, it did cost the landlady the price of the sandwiches, but she made up in the areas of ‘good deeds’ and karma. I worked in the food industry for over 20 years, my way of paying bills when I needed extra income, etc. I would be patient to those who were going into known locations that were not going to have their dietary restrictions met. I mean, when I worked at Cracker Barrel, our beans were made with ham, since this is a country chain restaurant, with recipes passed down (up) from the South. I would say the only things they could eat were baked potatoes and salads, making sure to note that there were meats on some of them. Only if they let me know about their diets, though. We all cannot possibly be mind readers!
Please don’t be embarrassed, this has happened to me several times – suddenly I’m not getting posts in my reader. I think WordPress eliminate followers somehow – it’s so annoying!
I think folk with allergies are much more likely to check whereas those who have chosen a stance for moral reasons are less likely to but more likely to make a fuss just to take the moral high ground 😃
This was an excellent point, Jenny. Those who are taking the ‘moral high ground’ possibly like to use the excuse to make a fuss. When they should ‘know’ better!
I’m not a fan of complaining about others – BUT I do feel very strongly about our western societies lack of common sense and inability to take responsibility for actions. Common sense tells me that should I not know what ‘pancetta’ is, I should either ask or not order it. Having made the decision to order it I can remove it myself and put it aside. I’d like to see more education going on around these inappropriate behaviours. Kudos to the landlady for her customer management skills!
Yes, I agree with all your points. The other point is, I suppose, embarrassment. Surely they should have been a little contrite when they realised their mistake? Deciding to become a vegetarian surely indicates that you have some interest in what you are and are not eating… I think the landlady was very patient and charming, albeit through gnashing teeth!
There’s nought as odd as folk Jenny – and I got my come-uppance for being so mean in my response today …… Come on over and have a laugh at my expense 🙂
Ahhh….. Pauline, I feel partially responsible for your injury! That’s horrendous – you were lucky not to lose your eye – oh my goodness, hope you’re feeling a bit better ☺️
As usual in my life there are a hundred blessings to count – the iron landed midway between temple and eyeball! What’s a few stitches if the other options were death or blindness? 🙂 I shall try to keep my opinionated opinions to myself next time 🙂
As a vegetarian who eats crustaceans (i.e. a fussy eater) I can promise that the practised vegetarian always, always asks what mystery ingredients are. What were they thinking?! I’d like to suggest that the landlady could have asked them to pay half towards their unwanted pancetta to help cover costs, but can imagine the uproar that would have ensued. Poor woman. Jx
Yes, she really was in a no win situation. However, she did share with us that had her husband (the chef) dealt with it, things would’ve been rather different 😄
I would probably have told them where to stick their bacon. Unless of course the menu was in Chinese or Urdu. Then there might be an excuse on the customer’s side. The landlady of course did the right thing by rising above the fray but I suspect that if that had happened at 35,000′ on an aircraft the cabin crew would have added a little something to the new order. I am a firm advocate of the Basil Fawlty approach. Interesting post, Sybil.
Many thanks. Probably a good idea we all never went into catering. The customer’s always right would wear thin very quickly. 😄
I suppose it depends on whether the ciabattas were described as containing the pancetta as sometimes this isn’t always clear on a menu. If it did then the customers ought to have asked what it is if they don’t eat meat. The landlady was generous, but she probably felt it wasn’t worth getting a bad review for the cost of a couple of sandwiches.
A similar thing happened to me in New Zealand, my DiL and I ordered a vegetarian cheese and spinach pasty which came in two shapes – triangular and round. We both got the triangular version which contained bits of, yes you guessed it, bacon. OK for me, but she is a veggie. We checked the description and there was no mention of meat, but the staff swapped it for the round version. I think someone slipped up with the labelling!
Oh it was definitely clear on the menu, Jude – that’s partly why we were so astonished. You’d never get someone with a nut allergy suddenly choosing nut roast, would you?
You are right of course. A couple of sandwiches is probably worth not getting a bad review for. And yes, sounds like your labeller got into a mix between their circles and triangles. Easily done. 😄
Bacon is such a bad one to get wrong though, for all sorts of other reasons!!
Two thumbs up for the landlady (is that the same as proprietor/owner?) for taking the hit with class and two jumbo thumbs down for customers who made a mistake regarding whatever assumption they made as to what pancetta is and then not having the class to admit it, apologize profusely and offer to pay for the replacements!
Good luck with the homework load – glad you came up for air long enough to enjoy a bit of Guinness with a bite!
Feeling a bit of a fraud on the homework front, to be honest- it’s not that arduous and I’ll probably miss it when the course finishes in five weeks 😀
And I agree, thumbs up for the landlady – yes, that’s our word for someone who runs a pub!
I was in Venezuela many years ago and ordered, what I thought was lobster. When it came to the table, it was slimy and grey. It could have been animal brains. I politely pushed the plate away, paid the bill and left a tip. Obviously I wasn’t an educated diner and the waiter or the establishment didn’t need to pay the price for my ignorance.
Ugh, sounds revolting Jill. Reminds me of a bowl of tripe ordered once in Normandy. It’s supposed to be a local delicacy but actually it is the stomach lining of a sheep or cow. Served with onions it is truly disgusting. We didn’t send it back, we just didn’t eat it, but at least we found out what it looked like 😄
Our youngest daughter works at Walt Disney World. I’m no longer shocked when I hear stories of people complaining just to get something for free. It’s a wonder any small food business makes any money. Kudos to the owner for doing the right thing for the customers, but they should have paid the difference for the new order.
Thanks, Jenny, for taking a break from your studies to share this story.
Hello Judy, I can’t really let you believe that my studies are taking all my time. I’m enjoying the course I must say but I have a little time to myself.
I think the margins for a small business must be extremely tight- and episodes like the one we witnessed yesterday just don’t help.
We have friends who own a charming cafe and make all their own soups, breads, salads and desserts. Everything is fresh and delicious.
One noon they had two customers who made them start planning their retirement. One woman complained–after eating an entire serving–that the homemade French Onion Soup’s Swiss cheese was not non-dairy, and the whole wheat toast the cheese was on in the soup wasn’t gluten-free.
The husband pounded the table and said loudly that they were trying to send his wife to the hospital; he and she marched out, saying their lawyer would be in touch. We all think the couple were scam artists just getting a free meal, but the scene upset our friends terribly, and two couples who were waiting to be seated changed their minds and left.
That’s an awful story, Marylin. That couple certainly sound like they are professional complainers as well as free loaders. I think our landlady did the right thing by not making an issue of it, but we were annoyed on her behalf that her pub was missing out through the ignorance of a couple of self proclaimed vegetarians.
Of course you”d expect this from the Canadian: I believe meeting halfway would be the ideal here. Customer satisfaction is indeed important but, yes, the bar has to pay its way. The error was by no means all that of the establishment and, so, it should not be expected to take the whole fall. That said, business is business and what the establishment lost that night by providing a double meal it may have gained back in terms of good will on behalf of those who witnessed the extra attention to customer service. As for the patrons, I truly small a rat here. Most vegetarians/vegans that I now are extremely knowledgeable about food and are unlikely to order items containing meat by mistake. I expect that no establishment ever makes any money off them. They probably pull this stunt all over. I would bet money that after soaking the bar for extra sandwiches they gave a piss-poor tip (none at all I would imagine) excusing themselves by dwelling on the “louse service” they deemed it to be even though it was anything but.
If it was a genuine mistake then they should have had the grace to be embarrassed about it and not insist the pub make them a fresh batch. We couldn’t belive that people could a) be so ignorant and b) have the cheek to make a stand. And I agree, most people who choose to be veggies do it with prior knowledge of the kinds of food they can eat and what is not acceptable. Having said that, a good friend of mine was veggie for years but caved in eventually for a bacon buttie 😊
She went beyond the call of duty, but then, I suppose she adhered to ‘the customer is always right’ – patently not always true
I wonder, is it ever? Made me think that businesses must be losing out all the time for fear of a bad review. Customers definitely have the upper hand – even if they’re ignorant!
Nothing surprises me these days Jenny. The simple solution would have been for them to have asked about the Pancetta beforehand if they didn’t know what it was. I hope it didn’t ruin what sounded like a rather pleasant weekend interlude
No it didn’t ruin it for us, if anything it gave us an extra chuckle, but it did make me think that I’m glad I don’t work in hospitality – I’m not sure I’d have been so polite!
Now here’s an odd thing Sherri. I’ve got the WordPress gremlins again. Your comment here did not show up on my notifications list … I only saw it when I viewed my page. Also, I’ve been annoyed that they deem it their responsibility to unfollow me from some of my favourite blogs, so be warned, there might be another spam gate lurking …
That’s good…and yes, I’m definitely with you Jenny, I could never work in hospitality either, I would lose it!!!
Now onto WP gremlins, thanks for letting me know. I wonder what is going on? I seem to be dropping followers and I wonder if that’s why? I wasn’t sure…and since you mentioned before that you didn’t see my post in your Reader, can I ask you if my recent one showed up? Not that I’m fishing for you to visit (but love it when you do of course!) but Jude has also said she hasn’t been getting my posts in her reader and I wonder who else it is happening to do and what to do about it. Thanks for the warning…hopefully those gremlins will disappear soon but once again, so very annoying…
Yes, I’ve just checked – the last post was your 777 challenge, wasn’t it? It did come up in my reader – I’ve just scrolled through, but I must have missed it at the time. I will keep an eye out (I usually do anyway, for your posts) and if they seem to be lacking, I’ll let you know 🙂
Ahh thanks Jenny, glad to know it was there. I’ve had some issues with the notification reader too but hopefully things are okay again…and never another repeat of Spamgate 😉
My opinion is, much like Sherri’s, that the customer should always ask what is exactly in a particular dish, first, before ordering it. And the landlady, in this case, went far and above the call of duty to make fresh Pancettas. After all, such an elegant dish she is offering anyway. (at a pub, in my opinion) Bad bad bad! See, not quite as clever a way of seeing life as Pie o logy, but it is a way of seeing life. Good landlady. Bad customers.
Of course they should Hollis – what were these people thinking? If their life depended on it ( i.e they had a severe food allergy) they’d sure as hell ask, wouldn’t they?
And yes, it fits in with your recent theme of good/bad.
Elegant dish for a pub? Well, yes, gone are the days of a simple plate of bread and cheese which always was known as a ‘ploughman’s ‘ nowadays it’s unusual to get that on a menu. We’re all much more international these days 😃
We may be more international, but our manners have gone south (not yours and mine, of course.) 🙂
More than a few friends of ours are in the hospitality industry and let’s just say that hubby and I can’t believe what they put up with Jenny… What I do know for a fact is that it is extremely hard to ‘make it rich’ owning and running a restaurant; people complain about everything.
It must be horrible – you’d have to grow a thick skin very fast to deflect all that moaning. I thought she handled the situation beautifully but it would have been more entertaining to see her husband’s version, I think! (He’s the chef, and according to her, more likely to have told them where to stick their bacon! ) 😄
I do think the responsibility for our own diets lies in our own hands. So, unless there was some manner of confusion in the wording, such as being listed as a veggie sandwich, then I’m with the hubs on this one. I’m glad you posted this. It’s a nice reminder that we gain often at other people’s losses.
There was definitely no confusion – the menu clearly stated Brie and Pancetta filled Ciabatta. And you’re right, the responsibility lies with the one with the dietary requirements. Thanks for commenting and the follow, Renee – I recognise you from Sherri’s blog, I think 😊
Bring back pubs where you can drink in peace without watching people stuff their faces. A pickled egg or a packet of pork scratchings used to be good enough for me 🙂 Seriously, good on the landlady – I don’t think I’d have been as accommodating.
Haha, yes, I remember when a ploughman’s was exotic fare for a pub! Pickled eggs? Yuck 😄
I think most small business owners do whatever they can to please customers, at the risk of bad word-of-mouth, or an even more visible bad review online. We also live in the era of “It’s Not My Fault” –where everyone but oneself needs to take responsibility for a situation. What you witnessed is unfortunate, but a pretty typical sign of the times, I think. Hats off to those who work in hospitality.
Too right, Gwen. Mostly poorly paid, I think for generally a lot of hassle. Nice to see you here again – when are you getting back to blogging? How’s the teaching going? I know how time consuming it can be – you’re probably exhausted!
It’s sad that people don’t consider what it’s like for the other party. Catering is a hard business to make money in, the margins are low and the hours are long. People should be considerate and not expect others to bear the cost of their mistakes. What a waste of food as well.
You raise another point – all that wasted food. That’s wicked in itself, isn’t it. I’d never last as a waitress, I’d never have been as polite as our landlady 😊